Talk:Ebrahim Raisi
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Ultra conservative according to whom?[edit]
According to some jewish-american press he is ultra-conservative, according to the rest of the world he is a muslim
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2022/09/13/a_brief_history_of_the_butcher_of_tehran_579496.html
Ebrahim Raisi started his career in 1981 as the prosecutor of Karaj and Hamadan Provinces. He played a leading role in persecuting minorities, especially the Bahais, and political opponents that left untold numbers dead, tortured, and jailed. 2600:4040:5F0A:5500:CC14:BEFE:BD7B:614B (talk) 22:46, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
Motahari is not a university, it is an Islamic madreseh. Please correct. 2603:8000:107:DFE8:F57E:B1A6:189B:AD3B (talk) 18:31, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- Hello, okay, but who gave him this name in the Western press? I don't see any Iranian, Eastern, or Asian articles using this nickname. And in all the Western articles we can read, he is called 'the Butcher of Tehran' because... but called by whom? And when? This nickname seems like propaganda. Tiktak11 (talk) 09:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- it look likes, this nickname was gived first by the iranian opposition :
- https://www.ncr-iran.org/en/publications/special-reports/iran-who-is-ebrahim-raisi/
- that the earliest record of this nickname ... Tiktak11 (talk) 10:11, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
He is part of the Iranian principlists faction, which is described as right wing, or hardliner. It might be better to use internal Iranian terminology, then to cite who interprets this as hardline or conservative. Harizotoh9 (talk) 04:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- I believe, after reflection, that the Iranian opposition (accused of terrorism in Iran and who participated in the Iran-Iraq war on the side of Iraq and Saddam Hussein in the 1980s), gave him the nickname 'Butcher of Tehran' because of the repression/struggle/war against the People's Mujahedin. Apparently, the only reference we find dates back to 2020 in a document by the NCR, composed of the People's Mujahedin organization. I don't know if it's correct to leave this on the page - 'Butcher of Tehran' - as it is clearly either an invented name in the context of propaganda following his election, or a nickname given by the People's Mujahedin (on the European Union's list of terrorist organizations until 2009). Tiktak11 (talk) 08:34, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
Women's rights section doesn't read very neutral[edit]
Don't get me wrong, I think the information presented is valid, but the wording "In fact, Iran has one of the world's worst records for human rights, thus Raisi's statements must be taken with extreme caution." after his (apparent) feminist view points comes across as a gotcha moment. I feel like it could be reworded slightly, maybe replacing the 'in fact' with 'Despite these comments' or something along those lines.--Amelia-the-comic-geek (talk) 01:09, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Raisi and violation of human rights in Iran[edit]
He has played a huge role in the violation of human rights in Iran and throughout the Middle East. This issue should be mentioned better and with more information in the article. His role in the killing of Iranian women and children is not mentioned too. FreeZoneF (talk) 08:51, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Came here to say this. Just read that he was responsible for the executions of 5000 political prisoners in 1988 alone, which if I’m reading correctly, was a violation of international law. Viriditas (talk) 11:53, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- You have to provide at least one source that mentions his violation of human rights and, if the comment above is true, the claimed execution of political prisoners. Saying just "add more about x because it should be in the article" without providing sources is not valid. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 13:07, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- @FreeZoneF.Yep, you just gotta show a reliable source of info for this to be a good edit request, then it can be added in. Garef 14:40, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- I’m also surprised we don’t have a single photo of the thousands of public lynchings by cranes that are available. It’s like someone is trying to sanitize Wikipedia. The Iranian regime executed hundreds to thousands just under his presidency alone, something like 40% or more were executed for nonviolent crimes alone. Viriditas (talk) 18:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- You know the difference between 'lynching' and 'hanging'? No? Ahh, ok.
- 2001:16B8:C711:5800:7096:D117:F1F9:4E5A (talk) 00:29, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Really? "The Iranian government summarily, extrajudicially, and secretly executed thousands of political prisoners held in Iranian jails in the summer of 1988. According to Human Rights Watch the majority of prisoners had had unfair trials by the revolutionary courts, and in any case had not been sentenced to death." Hope you enjoyed the education. Viriditas (talk) 03:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
Place of death[edit]
Some sources (like these ones https://www.maisoncarne.es/2024/qu-cks/2081947GMsDA2241PDbNS/ ; https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/raisi-iran-president-helicopter-crash/index.html) say that the helicopter carrying Ebrahim Raisi crashed near the village of Tavil, not near Julfa as we report. 2A02:B021:F06:8DEE:BBC:AA83:B38:2B11 (talk) 14:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Given that Tavil and Jolfa are only around 60 miles apart, it's likely that the crash occurred somewhere between the two. Dialmayo 15:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- The sources disagree on this matter, but as you say the helicopter crash probably occurred between Tavil and Julfa. 2A02:B021:F06:8DEE:BBC:AA83:B38:2B11 (talk) 15:05, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- 2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has the exact coordinates of the crash. Sadustu Tau (talk) 18:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- The sources disagree on this matter, but as you say the helicopter crash probably occurred between Tavil and Julfa. 2A02:B021:F06:8DEE:BBC:AA83:B38:2B11 (talk) 15:05, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Nickname inclusion violates the impartiality principle[edit]
The inclusion of the nickname "The Butcher of Tehran" in the infobox goes against Wikipedia's stance of political neutrality and impartiality, as it is mostly used by his detractors and is not a universally accepted nickname for Raisi. It should be removed. 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:4F6:9D4B:AD2D:9A5F (talk) 04:29, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
This amounts to name-calling at best |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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- Both @Viriditas and 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:11D7:CEFF:5086:CE6F seem to be taking extreme positions, charged with emotions, ideological defence, and self-righteousness. Such discussions are complex and cannot be easily resolved.
- @Viriditas, you have identified as American and appear to lean significantly to the left. It's important to note that nearly 80% of Americans view Iran unfavorably. and you should consider the impact of in-group bias against Iran.
- Yes, Iran needs significant improvements in human rights, and it would be foolish not to recognize the countless voices who have suffered or who seek change. However, we should also acknowledge that Iranian leaders largely want the best for their people, even if there are challenges.
- In the interest of fostering a productive and respectful dialogue, I urge both parties to exercise restraint and consider each other's perspectives with an open mind. Let’s aim for a more balanced and constructive conversation.
- I believe both of you are taking extreme positions. Describing Raisi as a "butcher" is as exaggerated as those who are embellishing his life and tenure. Ihikky (talk) 08:16, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- I just believe an encyclopedia should use a neutral language and calling someone a "butcher" is not a neutral language, especially if you use Israeli news websites as a source as this article does. 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:5C74:771E:9030:6182 (talk) 20:32, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Being neutral means we follow the reliable sources. If a WP:WEIGHT of reliable sources call them a butcher, then it would be taking a non-neutral position to say otherwise. TarnishedPathtalk 04:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Israeli and Western sources are not reliable when it comes to Iran. They are biased 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:7136:C0C8:F8ED:5F17 (talk) 04:36, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- You should see how far you get with that proposition at WP:RS/N. I suspect it wouldn't be very far. TarnishedPathtalk 04:40, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Israeli and Western sources are not reliable when it comes to Iran. They are biased 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:7136:C0C8:F8ED:5F17 (talk) 04:36, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Being neutral means we follow the reliable sources. If a WP:WEIGHT of reliable sources call them a butcher, then it would be taking a non-neutral position to say otherwise. TarnishedPathtalk 04:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
Iranian leaders largely want the best for their people
. That claim is incompatible with their demonstrated actions, which include butchering children. TarnishedPathtalk 04:05, 24 May 2024 (UTC)- You are from Australia. What would you know about the will of the Iranian people. If Iranian leaders are butcher, why millions of Iranians vote for them and attend their funerals? 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:7136:C0C8:F8ED:5F17 (talk) 04:38, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Trying to make the topic about me really doesn't help your argument. TarnishedPathtalk 04:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- You are from Australia. What would you know about the will of the Iranian people. If Iranian leaders are butcher, why millions of Iranians vote for them and attend their funerals? 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:7136:C0C8:F8ED:5F17 (talk) 04:38, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- I just believe an encyclopedia should use a neutral language and calling someone a "butcher" is not a neutral language, especially if you use Israeli news websites as a source as this article does. 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:5C74:771E:9030:6182 (talk) 20:32, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 May 2024[edit]
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Add this according to your preference and modification into his "Death" section
Raisi had died in a helicopter crash on 19 May, 2024 around 10:00 GMT. He was flying in an Bell 212 when about 30 minutes into the flight, officials lost contact with the aircraft. At about 1:30 GMT, rescuers spotted the wreckage from a distance from about 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) from the city of Varzaqan and then took about an hour to reach it. At the crash site, there were no signs of life, including the president's. Ayatollah Mohammad Ali Al-e Hashem, Ali Khamenei's representative in East Azerbaijan was actually alive for about an hour after the crash in which he made contact with the president's head of office before he died at about 11:00 GMT. There is no current known cause for the crash, except for maneuvering difficulties in heavy fog. Currently, there is no known successor to the president, but Mohammad Mokhber has been declared the current acting president of Iran. Although, Mokhber can only be the acting president for a maximum time period of 3 months before a new permanent replacement has to be nominated and approved by the Iranian Parliament.
Sources: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4nnd23d505o , https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/ebrahim-raisi-iran-president-helicopter-crash-live-updates-wreckage-of-iran-presidents-crashed-helicopter-found-5702084 Dynamicontributer (talk) 08:54, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Already done ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 11:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's also worth noting that details aren't usually put in there sections as they are provided on the mentioned article. Anyways, declined. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 11:02, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
Dating inconsistency[edit]
In the 1988 executions section it says "Raisi's involvement in the executions gained publicly in 2016, when Hussein-Ali Montazeri released an audio recording of an August 1988 meeting of the Tehran 'death committee'." Montazeri's article says he died in 2009 so it's hard to see how he could have been releasing recordings or doing very much else at all in 2016. 130.246.57.110 (talk) 12:06, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
Repeated sentence in "Death" section[edit]
"The United Nations Security Council stood for a minute's silence for Raisi." is said twice in the Death section. Please remove duplicate. Jdftba (talk) 21:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Done TarnishedPathtalk 04:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
Judicial career[edit]
Why was this reverted? Obviosuly Raisi's judicial career before the 1988 executions is relevant in explaining how he became the prosecutor in Tehran. It is also relevant from a chronological perspective. VR (Please ping on reply) 16:26, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Women's Rights section[edit]
That subsection in the Views section seems terribly unbalanced. It's just a few nice things he said about women. Surely his policy decisions, and reception of his influence on women's rights in Iran, should take up more space? Would anyone oppose me tagging that subsection as unbalanced or non-neutral in the meantime? Zanahary (talk) 21:41, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
"Raisi" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]
The redirect Raisi has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 June 4 § Raisi until a consensus is reached. Duckmather (talk) 22:06, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
"Raisi (disambiguation)" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]
The redirect Raisi (disambiguation) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 June 4 § Raisi (disambiguation) until a consensus is reached. Duckmather (talk) 22:06, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
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