User talk:Malik-Al-Hind

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Your submission at Articles for creation: Mughal-Safavid War of 1593-1595 (May 9)[edit]

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by TheTechie was:
It appears that your submission is either an attempt to be humorous rather than factual, or is an obvious hoax. As Wikipedia strives to contain only factual entries, we can not accept your submission at this time.
 The comment the reviewer left was:
Only wars between supposed belligerents are between 1649-1653 and 1622-23.
Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.
thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 17:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Hello, Malik-Al-Hind! Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 17:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposition[edit]

Greetings

Can we get a full fledge page on Autonym and Exonym of the Mogul Empire in enwiki? Abirtel (talk) 23:13, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Will look upon it. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 05:00, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring[edit]

Stop icon

Your recent editing history at Buddhism in Japan shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Skyerise (talk) 13:25, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't break the 3 revert edit rule. I immediately jumped into the talk page. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 13:26, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The warning is given when you look like you are about to. A warning is no good if you've already broken it! Skyerise (talk) 13:30, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
However, you are doing the same thing on other articles. Sometimes that counts against you as well. Skyerise (talk) 13:32, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't do edit war in any articles except Buddhism in Japan page. Even there i quickly jumped into the talk page. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 13:33, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, good. So far you've not proposed any sources that use the word with respect to the subject. Skyerise (talk) 13:34, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But isn't Indianisation or Indosphere literally refers to "Spread of Indian culture/language/religion. Buddhism dominated throughout much of Japan's history which is an Indian religion? Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 13:37, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ever heard of Shinto and Confucianism? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 14:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I have, But you can never deny the influence of buddhism in japan, can you? Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 14:21, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To apply the word to Japanese Buddhism without a source which directly and explicitly applies it is synthesis. We, as editors, cannot put facts together. We report how writers on the topic put the facts together. To quote the guidelines "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source." Skyerise (talk) 14:27, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes but is it ever denied that Buddhism didn't have a significant impact on culture of japan? Consider checking these sources which talks about "Indianization of japan"
  • Stratton, Eric (2000). The Evolution of Indian Stupa Architecture in East Asia. ISBN 9781932705546. Retrieved 2000. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
  • Gardon white, David (2000). Tantra in practice. ISBN 9781932705546. Retrieved 2000. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 14:36, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When Gordon White puts "Indianization" in WP:SCAREQUOTES, he is implying that there is no such thing, but that sometimes people mistakenly call it that. You'll have to do better than that. Skyerise (talk) 14:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where does he say that? He clearly regards spread of buddhism in japan as it's "Indianization". Consider checking the other source aswell. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 14:45, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You don't know what scarequotes mean? I provided a link... Skyerise (talk) 14:59, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes because I am new to wiki. But can you summarise what does it mean? Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 15:00, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It means that the author is denying that the term is applicable. When someone say "Indianization" of Japan, with Indianization in quotation marks, they mean that it is incorrectly applied terminology. The addition of quotation marks makes the statement mean the opposite of its apparent meaning. Skyerise (talk) 15:13, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But in the book i didn't see it anywhere. The book talks only about Indianization of japan in brief through buddhism and the adoption of the Hindus deties in it's pantheon. As far as I have read the book, I only see it "agreeing" with it. Make sure to read the other quotation too. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 15:24, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You linked directly to a page where he uses it in quotation marks. It is the only occurance of the work in the book: nowhere else in the book does he refer to Indianization. Same with the other source you provided. I've looked for sources that don't use scare quotes. I couldn't find any. The position is not supportable; Japanese Buddhism came from China and brought Chinese cultural elements: that's what all the sources say. Skyerise (talk) 15:26, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is what the source says:
"Buddhism was the main avenue by which "Indianization" took place. Although the Indianization of Japan and China was different than in Southeast Asia, both "Indianizations" produced a marked change in philosophy. It was this change in philosophy that stimulated and produced some of the finest works of Asian civilization. It is still debated by many scholars as to the true effect, if any, Hinduism had on the Buddhist countries of Northeast Asia. Due to the "polytheistic" nature of Mahayana Buddhism some scholars suspect this might have played a role at some point. It is a fact that many of the Shingon deities, seen as protectors of Buddhism, are in fact derived from Brahmanic gods. However, that is a debate that requires a completely different study for its examination."
The source clearly agrees that japan was indianized, but it's Indianization was different than that of indonesia. I still don't understand where the page supports the arrival of buddhism as "Sinicization" and not "Indianization".
Afterall it specifically says Japan was "Indianized" and even explains the difference between Indianization of Japan/China and Indianization of Indonesia. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 15:34, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're still not getting it. Putting "Indianization" in quotes is like adding the word 'not' to the sentence. Skyerise (talk) 15:48, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, But what is irritating here is I don't see anywhere where it disagrees with "Indianization". It even explains the difference between "Indianization of China and japan" and "Indianization of indonesia" Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 15:49, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By putting scarequotes around "Indianization". If he weren't denying it, there would be no quotation marks around Indianization. Skyerise (talk) 15:50, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Read our article on scare quotes: "Scare quotes (also called shudder quotes, sneer quotes, and quibble marks) are quotation marks that writers place around a word or phrase to signal that they are using it in an ironic, referential, or otherwise non-standard sense. Scare quotes may indicate that the author is using someone else's term, similar to preceding a phrase with the expression 'so-called'; they may imply skepticism or disagreement, belief that the words are misused, or that the writer intends a meaning opposite to the words enclosed in quotes. Whether quotation marks are considered scare quotes depends on context because scare quotes are not visually different from actual quotations. The use of scare quotes is sometimes discouraged in formal or academic writing." Skyerise (talk) 15:54, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The para i quoted, There it doesn't use scarequote before talking about "Indianization of japan". Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 15:57, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It uses them in the second sentence. The intended meaning is completely clear to a native English speaker. Please read WP:ICANTHEARYOU and desist. Skyerise (talk) 16:02, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and in the second section it nowhere puts Scare quotes before "Indianization". Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 16:12, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where is it talking about the influence on Southeast Asia: China and Korea. Let's try this another way: find me a source that lists Japan as one of the countries in the Indosphere, since you have made the claim that it is. Skyerise (talk) 16:30, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, I believe you don't mean Indosphere, but rather Greater India. The concept of a "Greater India" was an idea promoted by a group of Bengali writers in the 1920s. The term fell out of favor after the 1970s. While some fringe writers included Japan in "Greater India", the majority of writers on the topic did not, and the term is no longer used. From our article on the topic: "By some other accounts, many Pacific societies and 'most of the Buddhist world including Ceylon, Tibet, Central Asia, and even Japan were held to fall within this web of Indianizing culture colonies'. This particular usage – implying cultural 'sphere of influence' of India – was promoted by the Greater India Society, formed by a group of Bengali men of letters, and is not found before the 1920s. The term Greater India was used in historical writing in India into the 1970s." It's an obsolete nationalistic academic view, even in India. Skyerise (talk) 17:42, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is clearly talking about Influence in China/Japan.
Let me quote this again for you.
"Buddhism was the main avenue by which "Indianization" took place. Although the Indianization of Japan and China was different than in Southeast Asia, both "Indianizations" produced a marked change in philosophy. It was this change in philosophy that stimulated and produced some of the finest works of Asian civilization. It is still debated by many scholars as to the true effect, if any, Hinduism had on the Buddhist countries of Northeast Asia. Due to the "polytheistic" nature of Mahayana Buddhism some scholars suspect this might have played a role at some point. It is a fact that many of the Shingon deities, seen as protectors of Buddhism, are in fact derived from Brahmanic gods. However, that is a debate that requires a completely different study for its examination."
I have provided you 2 sources already which includes Japan as one of the "Indianized" place. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 18:50, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Greater India is formed to the concept of "Indosphere" it includes all lands which were once influenced by Indian religion/culture. Just like Greater China or Greater Iran. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 18:52, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's not what the sources say; that's your own fringe opinion. You are editing disruptively, despite the objections of three or more different editors. That's grounds for blocking. Skyerise (talk) 19:09, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay I will stop here. Apologies if it seemed like it. I am new to wiki and I am not familiar to all the rules and regulations of the platform here. I don't even realise when I break a certain rule.
But thank you for concerning Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 19:11, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And you're clueless about what Indosphere actually means: it is a linguistic term which refers to languages which were influenced in their development by the languages of India: neither Chinese nor Japanese were influenced by Indian languages. Neither language is included in the Indosphere. But thank you for agreeing to desist. Skyerise (talk) 19:13, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article says "Linguistic and cultural" spread though. I think culture can mean "religion" here? Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 19:15, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What you think is irrelevant. It's what the sources say. You can't tell what sources mean when they use scare quotes and are taking seriously what the writer of your sources doesn't mean seriously. Lighten up! Skyerise (talk) 19:20, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If culture there doesn't mean religion and tradition, then what else it means then? It can't mean language because a seperate term linguistic has been used. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 19:22, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not you who gets to interpret it. It's what the sources themselves say it includes. You are taking sources that are making fun of the term "Indianization" and not even getting that that's what they are doing! Skyerise (talk) 19:24, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I am stopping the argument here. Will close this thread Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 19:25, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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